Serve on a Board & Follow Up

Karin Kovacic Baker Tilly

When you are in the process of business development there are several key factors to remember including the importance of being authentic, being reliable, focusing on genuine connections to build your network, and seeking advice from the right mentors. These can be daunting if you find yourself not sure of where to start with the whole process. Today we continue our series of conversations with professionals and discuss some of these basic points with our guest, Karin Kovacic. Karin is a Director of Business Development at Baker Tilly. During the episode, we dive into the topics of serving on a board to grow your network, the power and importance of follow-up, and the value of identifying good mentors to aid in your professional growth and development.

Key Points From This Episode

  • We unpack what business development is: It’s all about your brand.
  • The importance of authenticity in your role in business development.
  • Trust, personal relationship, and what differentiates you from the rest.
  • The power of volunteering on a board and how it helps your network.
  • Being reliable: Following through and doing what you said you’re going to do.
  • The importance of touch-points when building your network.
  • Advice on seeking and finding the right mentors.


[00:00:01] ANNOUNCER: Welcome to Branch Out, a Connection Builders podcast. Helping middle market professionals connect, grow and excel in their careers. Through a series of conversations with leading professionals, we share stories and insights to take your career to the next level. A successful career begins with meaningful connections.

[00:00:21] AD: Hey everyone, welcome to Branch Out. I’m your host, Alex Drost. Today’s guest is Karin Kovacic, a managing director of Neptune Financial, a tech-enabled lower middle market lender. Karin and I dive into the topics of serving on a board to grow your network, the power and importance of follow-up and the value of identifying mentors to aid in your professional growth and development. Hope you enjoy.

[00:00:21] ANNOUNCER: Connect and grow your network. We are on LinkedIn. Search for Connection Builders.


[00:00:54] AD: Karin, welcome to Branch Out. Excited for our conversation today.

[00:00:58] KK: Thank you for having me, Alex. I’m excited to be here.

[00:01:00] AD: You and I over the last couple of weeks have had a number of conversations, and I think at this point have spent hours talking about what business development means. And as a professional, we all in one way or another have part of our role that goes back to a business development like function. And during those conversations and trying to really unpack what business development is, you said something I thought that was really insightful that I’d love to hear your thoughts on, and it was this idea that business development is all about your brand. Can you share some thoughts for our listeners on that?

[00:01:32] KK: Thanks, Alex. When we join a firm and we’re part of a team, we want to be able to represent the company as best we can, but that also has to do with us as people and having the integrity, having the character, having the knowledge of the deals of what we’re supposed to do, and they are very intertwined. I mean having a personal relationship and representing your company I feel like is an important part of being authentic in business development. And I think that people recognize that. People recognize the authenticity of what we’re trying to do.

[00:02:07] AD: Authenticity comes out all the time, right? Every time I talk to someone about business development, it seems that we get back to this topic of authenticity. And if I’m hearing you right here, this comes back to this idea that if you’re in a business development role, you being your own brand and bringing your brand tied with the organization you represent, those two become intertwined in some ways and it’s all about being able to build that in a genuine way. Not trying to be fake just based on what role you’re in or what organization you work for. Is that a fair way of summarizing that?

[00:02:38] KK: I think so. There was a coach that said once that it’s the name on the back of the jersey. Not necessarily the name on the front. And I think that in capsules what we’re trying to do here, is that people that I have relationships with trust me and they trust the firm that I’m with have the same values, the same integrity, the same character that I do. So if they want to do business with me, they’re going to want to do business with the firm that I chose to be with, right? And so wherever I’ve moved in my career I’ve taken those relationships with me.

[00:03:07] AD: And you said something important there, a huge chunk of what business development and relationships come down to is building trust with other people and really building genuine trust. Do you want to share some thoughts of where you think the importance of trust and maybe things you’ve done to continue to build that with your network?

[00:03:25] KK: So it’s actually really funny. So right before this podcast, I went for my first in-person networking meeting. A sponsor that I know looks two streets away from me. And we walked to go get iced coffee and walk back. And I met him in 2009 when he was at another private equity firm and we were looking at a deal together. His office was in Stanford, Connecticut which is about five minutes from my house in Old Greenwich, and I drove him a term sheet. And I was sitting in his office chair waiting for him to come in the office at nine o’clock in the morning with a paper term sheet in my hand. Today he brought that up and that was 12 years ago. And it’s the only time he’s ever had that in his whole career that somebody like hand-delivered a term sheet.

And here we are friends and neighbors 12 years later. Standing out and doing things like that, listening and trying to differentiate yourself in a marketplace full of service providers that technically our product is commoditized, I mean it’s money, right? And so it’s how can you stand out? Another sponsor that I look at a lot of deals with moved up the area, wanted to join a golf club that my sister and her husband belong to. So I introduced him to my sister and her husband and six years later now him and my brother-in-law play golf as members together. A lot of it I think does cross over into the personal side of things. If you spend time listening to what people say and what people need, I try to just add value where I can. And obviously sometimes that’s true. Of course I’ve had experience in government contracting or I’ve had experience in healthcare or I’ve done five medical device companies. But sometimes that is the golf club membership or sometimes that is hand-delivering the term sheet and i about kind of listening to what your contacts and prospects are saying.

[00:05:00] AD: What I really take away from that is it’s this idea that you do something above and beyond. You do something where you’re focusing on the relationship, not on how to do business, not on how to get something that benefits you, but how do you just genuinely help the other person. How do you just stand there and say, “Okay, I want to do something for them and pay it forward.”

[00:05:19] KK: Right. And I think that you and I were talking I think last week where I got a LinkedIn message from a CEO at another lending company who I respect a lot in the business who’s a super busy individual. He saw on LinkedIn, I changed my location to Greenwich, because I live here. He lives in Rye, which is where I grew up and is thinking about moving to Greenwich. And I just emailed him back and I said, “Call my cellphone. Let’s just have a conversation about it. I can tell you the positives and negatives of both towns just to kind of give you some feedback from someone who’s been here for as long as I have.” And you’re trying to take the time to do that for someone and hopefully kind of reap the benefits later on. I feel like if you can kind of establish that personal connection, it just helps you to build the relationship.

[00:06:01] AD: Again, it all starting with the personal connection, right? All too often professionals look at it is I’m either networking in business development for a relationship or for a personal. And they’re intertwined. And we’ve talked about this on previous podcasts as well. In the end, as a professional, there is a huge gray zone between your personal and professional life. And the more you can help someone out, and whether that be professionally or personally, it is all part of building your network. It’s all part about building your career.

[00:06:28] KK: It is. And I have to tell you. I mean I got involved in ACG Connecticut at the very beginning of my middle market career, and one of the first ACG Connecticut meetings that I walked into, Ramsay Goodrich of Carter Morris & Goodrich kind of grabbed me and took me under his wing, and 15 years later he’s still – I mean he’s a mentor, but he’s become an amazing friend and person who has helped guide me through this ecosystem during my career. There’s just a group of these ACG Connecticut guys and girls that become friends, and it’s come out like a true collegiate community. All do deals together and work together because we like each other. And you really want to do deals with people that you like.

[00:07:07] AD: Exactly. You want to work with people. You want to do stuff with people you like. The ACG is such a great community, right? I’m heavily involved here in ACG Detroit, you in ACG Connecticut. Now something that you and I’ve talked about before is the power of volunteering on a board, right? And ACG, especially for most of our listeners, that’s a really great example. Now there’re many other boards out there. But finding some form of a board to volunteer on and how that can help your network. Can you share some of your thoughts around how you’ve done that and where you’ve seen some of the benefit in your professional and personal life?

[00:07:36] KK: Sure. I mean I think that ACG is an incredible organization, the chapter levels, on the global level. I was president of Connecticut, chairman of Connecticut and I did serve a term on the ACG global board, which was an incredible experience. I think that whatever your industry is and whatever the networking forum or organization that you want to belong to, like instead of going to just a bunch of different organizations’ events, to pick one or two organizations and really put yourself in it. Volunteer to help with programming. Volunteer to help with sponsorship. Get involved. Because it allows you to network and connect with the other board members outside of your day job, and your day job will inevitably come up in conversation. But being able to work with people on different projects gives them an insight on to how responsive are you. How much of a team player are you? What do you do what you say you’re going to do? It gives them a kind of peek into all of your soft skillsets that they might not necessarily otherwise have the opportunity to see.

I was fortunate enough to get involved in the board of Connecticut early on and then kind of go up to the ACG global board. One of the really exciting moments in my personal and professional career was being able to interview Elizabeth Cutler of SoulCycle, co-founder of SoulCycle. I’m an avid Soul cyclist or at least was pre-COVID. Any time that we would have ACG global board meetings, I would try to get a group of people to go at 6am like, “Hey, let’s wake up early and go to SoulCycle,” and it became a thing and sometimes we would go to Flywheel or whatever else. But it became a thing.

And so when the ACG global board got the keynote, they asked me to be the moderator because they knew that I had a passion for SoulCycle. They knew that I would be able to enthusiastically and authentically, as we said, be able to provide an interview that was engaging and informative and I could help bridge the gap on what SoulCycle is for the consumer and what SoulCycle from a business standpoint would be interesting to the audience. And so that was a really incredible experience. But if I didn’t know the ACG staff as well as I did, then they wouldn’t have known that I had such a history with the company and they wouldn’t have asked me to do something like that.

And as I said, I mean I think that you know there is such a crossover between personal and professional, and that was both, right? Pretty cool to meet the founder of such an incredible company and be able to talk to her one-on-one from a personal standpoint, but then also just to sit up on the stage with her and talk about the business was so exhilarating.

[00:09:57] AD:  No. And it’s such a cool story you share. I love that you tied it in there. It’s this idea that when you are on a board, it’s not about serving yourself from what I do on a professional day job. It’s about an opportunity to build relationships and help others understand more about who you are and what you have interest in. But another area I want to dive into for a moment, you talk about demonstrating some of your other skillsets, right? And we on the podcast here and as Connection Builders, we talk a lot from a business development standpoint. But in the end it’s about building connections with other humans and it’s about building your sphere of influence.

And when it comes down to it, building leadership skills and developing those critical skills that help you a lot in your career, that is very well done when you sit on an organization of a board especially a not-for-profit board. And those are hard skillsets that you don’t necessarily learn in your day-to-day job. So you get the opportunity to build those skillsets, to demonstrate those skillsets and strengthen them, but then also in your exact point with SoulCycle, you get the opportunity to help people understand what your personal passions are and then potentially have opportunities come up that you could never have imagined.

[00:11:07] KK: It’s really funny, Alex. I think I when Christine asked me to do this, I was so excited. I was joking around with her that I thought that I was more excited than my six-year-old was for Christmas to do this interview. And Elizabeth was so gracious and post-interview gave me her cellphone number and we actually took a SoulCycle class in the city two weeks after the interview. It was just incredible to be able to do that with her. But again I think that if you have that authentic, genuine, real connection with someone, then that’s going to hopefully be contagious and reciprocated, and it was a really great experience.

[00:11:40] AD: I love the word contagious, and obviously in our current environment, contagion isn’t necessarily the best word to throw around, but I do believe that when we’re talking about bringing that happiness and that excitement and helping other people, it does become contagious when you’re in those environments.

Karen, you and I have talked about this idea of just treating people right in a willingness to help, right? And again a lot of what we’ve talked about has circled back to that. But I think so much of that is really the foundation for being able to build trust. Now with knowing that takes time. It’s a long term mindset to accomplish. How do you manage that?

[00:12:20] KK: It’s going to sound really elementary. It’s following through. It’s doing what you say that you’re going to do. It’s being responsive. It’s listening to what they say. I smile to myself as I’m telling you this, because I feel like I’m talking to my kids, right? But it’s really true. It’s trying to follow up and be the person that’s reliable, dependable, all of those kind of qualities that as we said before are those kind of “soft skills” that you don’t really know about somebody until they show it to you, until they prove it to you.

I mean clearly my CRM is extremely important to me and my note-taking is extremely important to me to remember conversations and details about conversations about the firm and about their personal lives. And also trying to demonstrate knowledge in what they’re asking for. Talking about leverage. Talking about the industry. Trying to show them value add, whether it’s directing them to an industry paper on something that they’re looking at or something relevant or something that could be a potential add-on for them. But adding value whether it’s on the personal side or on the business side to show that you have the competency in both and the understanding of both and how that works together.

[00:13:23] ANNOUNCER: This is Branch Out, a Connection Builders podcast.

[00:13:32] AD: I want to hit on one thing. You and I talked about this a lot. It’s the follow-up. So many people go and do networking and they don’t do the follow-up. And I think you and I said this. The networking is the fun part. The networking is the thing that you go have a couple drinks, talk to people. And you and I, our personalities, we really like those large crowds. I know not everyone does. But in the end, the networking, the activity of going to the event or the activity of going to the coffee or whatever it might be where you’re actually interacting with the person, or the phone call even, or the Zoom call, whatever it is. That’s the fun part. That’s the human interaction part. The critical element there though to building the relationship is you have to have a follow-up. You have to have something. Whether that’s a phone call or following through what you said you were going to do and making sure you’re staying in touch, because if not, then what was the point of actually having the initial meeting?

[00:14:21] KK: I couldn’t agree more, and I think that there is so much preparation on the frontend of the conference or the event to try to see – I mean if it’s possible to see who’s going to be there first and you’re going to say, “Hey, let’s meet for 20 minutes, 30 minutes, what have you.” And then afterwards, yeah, I mean taking the attendee list and going through and sending an email and trying to – Yeah, you can send a paragraph, “It was great to meet you here and let’s find time to connect,” and then hopefully you try to write something a little bit personal, like, “Alex, I really enjoyed our conversation about craft beer or really enjoyed hearing about your kids soccer matches,” or like kind of add something a little bit personal that you hopefully wrote down on the back of a business card to give you a little bit more of that punch that they remember who you were and try to schedule a one-on-one follow-up to just dive a little bit deeper and see if there are ways to work together.

And I do treat all of these Zoom events the same way that I would treat an in-person event. Seeing the attendee list, emailing people afterwards. And honestly, I mean look, I know that I might not be the most important person to talk to, but I am so surprised at the lack of follow-up that I get versus the amount that I put out.

[00:15:22] AD: I think you’re very right there, and I think many of us that spend a lot of time reaching out, there is sometimes a lack of response. And I don’t mean a lack of you were reaching out trying to get them to jump on and give you a phone call to see if they had a deal to offer, but literally you have a conversation, say, “Hey, I’m going to connect you with this person.” They say they’re going to connect you to that person, and you do your part and you don’t get it back all the time. Knowing that that’s going to happen, and the important thing is to continue to do it on your end. Continue to be that person following through in your word, because it comes back to, if you want to build trust, if you really want to build genuine trust with people, you have to have multiple touch points. You have to prove yourself again and again. You have to do those things that are important. And ultimately that’s what you as a person want to do, right? You want to follow through on your word and make those connections and do those things to build the right relationships.

[00:16:10] KK: Absolutely. And I do just want to comment, because I think that one of the things that I’ve also realized with the lack of response that you’re talking about, I think it’s also really important to understand that not a lot of people’s sole responsibility is this. The fact that this is my role, right? To originate deals, to source deals, like that’s my responsibility 100% of the time. And that’s not everybody’s responsibility 100% of the time. And again, so I understand that and I respect that and I respect their time tremendously. And it’s not something that I take personally. I understand that I’m not the highest on the priority list. Like obviously there’re deals that are closing and fundraising that’s happening and who knows what’s happening in somebody’s personal life, like I get it. And it’s really important to know that that kind of rate of return, if you will, isn’t going to be that high, but it’s not necessarily personal. There’s so many other factors that go into that, and I’m very aware of that and just try to you know be as respectful of everybody’s time as I can be.

[00:17:03] AD: But don’t take it personally. I send a lot of emails. If an email doesn’t get responded to, it is what it is. I know it’s never personal, because myself, you and everybody else that’s a professional has an inbox that probably has a never-ending supply of emails in it. So I totally get that. But I want to make sure it doesn’t get lost in there is that whether you’re full-time business development or whether you’re not full-time business development, but you are still looking to build relationships, a huge part of that is the follow-up. It is making sure that you’re doing that, because those touch points are what help continually build the relationship time and time again. And even those touch points that don’t get responded to, those are still very important to be doing.

[00:17:45] KK: Absolutely.

[00:17:53] AD: Can you share some advice for, one, someone who’s looking to seek and find those mentors? And then, two, from a perspective of you now and in your career, you’re in a position where you can also provide that mentorship to others. Can you just share some thoughts around that?

[00:18:07] KK: Sure. I mean I still need my mentor by the way. Ramsay has been invaluable as far as helping to guide me, as I said, not just which careers, but just certain decisions about my career and certain situations that have risen during it. He was a leader at ACG Connecticut when I first joined. He has a very outgoing and similar personality to you and I. And so we just clicked. It was just one of those things where we met and just enjoyed each other’s company as people, right? And that’s kind of how things start, is that you want to spend time with people that you like.

He had been very open to introducing me to ACG Connecticut members to kind of guiding me onto the board with volunteering, and we kind of joke around about it. I did a podcast with him about inner growth like two years ago, but I’ve kind of followed in his footsteps. He was president of ACG Connecticut and then I was. He was chairman and then I was. He went on the global board and then I did. And so I’ve really kind of followed in his footsteps, which is very big shoes to fill at. But in the sense of trying to help the organization both from a local and a national level, I just ask him questions and I’d be very bold and direct and say, “Hey, listen. Do you have time to talk about this?” I’m not waiting for him to kind of offer these pearls of wisdom. I’m asking for that. I’m asking him for help and I’m fortunate that he takes the time to do that with me despite running his own firm and family and all of the other obligations that he has. But I feel like, again, when you’re respecting somebody’s time, you want to be direct. Like I come up with my questions first and then I kind of call and say, “Hey, do you have half an hour?” and I have everything kind of all planned out, which topics I want to discuss. Just like you we said with networking events and everything else, like the preparation and the follow-up. And it’s the preparation and the follow-up with this too and appreciating somebody’s time.

[00:19:54] ANNOUNCER: This is branch Out, bringing you candid conversations with leading middle market professionals.

[00:20:02] AD: I want to take a minute and talk to those of our listeners that are sitting in the shoes of being a mentor. If you have someone you can help, and I would very much tell people that open their mind up and think about who can you reach out to, who can you help pour value into, because I think that could be so powerful not only for them but for yourself. You learn so much in the process of mentoring people.

Now with all of that said, switching shoes to all of us and myself included who need mentors in our lives, and I’m a big believer in having four to six coaches and mentors in your life at all times and really helping to pour into you and help you with your growth. When you’re in that position of seeking a mentor, they’re not going to fall out of the sky and land in front of you. Go ask questions. Go find people and reach out.

And I will tell you, one of the most powerful things, and I’ve done this multiple times in my career, is find someone I look up to and say, “I like the way their career is. I admire where they are. I want to know what they’ve been doing,” and reach out and be honest, be genuine and just say, “Hey, I admire what you’re doing. I look up to what you’re doing. I’m looking for advice. Would you be willing to sit down have a cup of coffee and share some thoughts with me?” And you’d be shocked at the number of people that would be willing to do that for you. And to your exact point, if you go in, you prepare properly, you bring up the right questions ahead of time, you make sure that you’re using their time wisely. That’s how you not only build that relationship, but you also make sure that you respected them and they’re going to want to continue to pour into you as time goes.

[00:21:26] KK: And you brought up a really good point. I mean it’s like Ramsay has been one. Chris Hebel from Houlihan Lokey has been another. Pam Hendrickson at Riverside, a pretty incredible woman. I’ve been really fortunate to have taken advantage of those resources. And knowing Ramsay from ACG Connecticut and getting to know Chris and Pam just through business in my career and some of the ACG global events, it’s been just incredible to get different insights as well, right? To kind of just get like a full well-rounded picture from different people in different parts of their career, in different parts of the country, in different companies, that you can kind of take bits and pieces of things from everybody. Look, I’ve been very fortunate to be put in situations where I’ve gotten to meet and spend time with such incredible people. It’s been a great experience.

[00:22:13] AD: I want to point at one thing. You said you’ve been very fortunate. You have, and I myself have also been very fortunate in the people I’ve been able to meet, but you’ve also been intentional in trying to find those people. Again, you have to actively seek that and good fortune will follow if you pay it forward. And so that has to be something that you really focus on.

Karin, last thought I want to dive into here. When you sit back and look at your career and say, “Okay, you’ve had a successful career, you’ve spent time in a number of different firms in the middle market and in a number of different capacities,” what would you stand back and tell Karin starting her career off? What would you say do this differently or avoid this mistake? What is something you just look back and say, “Man, I wish I would have known that earlier.”

[00:22:55] KK: Really research people that you’re going to work with, right? Is that really pay attention to past portfolio companies that they’ve worked with. How they’ve treated sponsors? How they’ve treated people? How they behaved to one another and to what the culture is like at the firms? What makes you feel good and what doesn’t make you feel good? Even early, and have the conviction to make sure that you’re with the right group. And I think that’s really important and I think it’s one of the really interesting things with me at Neptune now. And you and I have talked about this too. I moved over here right before COVID about three weeks prior. You would think like, “Oh gosh! Starting a new job at this time would be – It is difficult.” But I’ve known these guys for three and a half years. We’ve stayed in touch. We’ve talked continuously through that process. So this was not a decision that either side took lightly and spending the time to get to know them and know how they are as people and how they treat me and their families and their portfolio companies and their sponsors. And it was such an important and crucial part of my joining this firm, because I’m representing them here on the East Coast. It’s a West Coast based firm. For me to be the face of the firm for them to trust me obviously and then also for me to trust them was such a huge component of making this work and making this successful. And I think it’s something that is very important to, again, that genuine authenticity about being excited where you are and excited about what you’re doing.

[00:24:18] AD: You make two really good points there that I want to make sure our listeners took away. It’s, first, you build trust with the people you’re working with. It takes time and career opportunities will come out of nowhere from the relationships that you’re building. But more importantly, step back and recognize that we as humans, we are all creatures that are easily influenced and we become the average of the people we spend the most time around. And if you are in an environment where you are seeing behavior that doesn’t align with your core values, the longer you remain there, the more you become like that, whether good or bad, right? And so surround yourself with the right team and the right people that elevate you as a professional.

[00:24:59] KK: Absolutely agree. And I think that sometimes when you’re younger you don’t necessarily have the confidence or being able to bifurcate either the name of the firm or the reputation of the firm, but how they are internally two very different things. And sometimes I think that you know you might sacrifice some of your soul, so to speak, to kind of get that name on your resume or what have you. And I think that that’s a big mistake.

[00:25:22] AD: For anyone who’s in an organization where they’re not necessarily happy with the culture of the environment, I think first and foremost you have to speak up and try to make it known, because I think in many times toxic cultures and negative cultures are a product of people not simply communicating with each other, because I don’t think many people get out of bed every day just thinking how they can go to work trying to see how toxic they can make it. However, I don’t discount that it is absolutely possible to find yourself in a situation where the culture’s just not a fit, it’s just not going to work, it’s just not going to change, and you’ve tried to address it. I think you’re so right. Don’t get hung up staying there. There’s more opportunity. And it doesn’t mean you can leave the next day, but start looking. Start building relationships. Start finding things and don’t let yourself get hung up too long, because I think in the long run that’s just going to drag you down.

[00:26:07] KK: Yes, I agree, and it’s going to drag you down personally and it’s going to clearly affect the way or the ability that you’re able to sell, because you’re not going to believe in the product anymore. And three, as you would point it out, your reputation will suffer as a result if you start kind of not stepping up to the plate or not doing what you say you’re going to do because you’re disengaged or disheartened by the firm that you’re with. And so that will affect you long term in several different aspects. And I think that it makes such a world of difference when you’re at a place that you feel valued and appreciated and trusted and that you reciprocate those feelings in return, and it’s really incredible what you can build and what you can do in that type of an environment and you just tend to, I think, thrive and want to thrive more so.

[00:26:49] AD: I can’t tell you the number of meetings I have had where I’ve sat down with someone who you can just purely tell they don’t like their firm and they’re not in a position where they feel good about it. And it just comes off so evident and so clear in the networking meeting. And you walk away and it’s, one, you don’t you certainly don’t want to do business with them. Two, your reaction to that person is, “Wow! What a negative Nancy.” And you stop wanting to interact, right? I mean life’s too short to spend time with people that are unhappy or in a bad mood. So you’re still right. It has such an overflow outside of just you inside of the cubicle or inside your office. It flows out into every aspect of your life.

[00:27:25] KK: And I think you and I were joking around about this on one conversation that I’d be like the world’s worst poker player, because it’s like written all over my face all the time. So yeah, I think it’s really important. And look, the enthusiasm when you have it and it’s genuine hopefully is contagious, right?

[00:27:40] AD: You’re so right and so well said there, Karin. So Karin, I really appreciate your time today. This has been a lot of fun. I’m excited for our listeners to hear this. I think you’ve had some great content to share here and looking forward to talking again soon.

[00:27:52] KK: Alex, thank you for having me. I’m really excited for you and for Connection builders and all the podcasts that you’re doing. Thank you so much.

[00:27:59] AD: Thank you.


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